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Darxon
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 Rental version
« Thread Started on Oct 20, 2006, 6:47am »

As agreed, I'll try to come up with a suggestions for a set of rules for the inclusion of rental-versions in the online db.

Please feel free to add your input for this first draft.



Rental versions

1. Determining rental versions

A rental version of a DVD is intended for rental through authorized rental stores. It is irrelevant if the DVD carries the possibility for a later resale or not.

Rental versions may, but don't necessarily have to, differ from the retail versions of the same DVD in one or more of - but not limited to - the following ways:

- different UPC / EAN
- different Disc ID
- different cover
- different content (audio tracks, supplemental material, etc.)

Rental versions may - but don't have to - carry an indicator by the distributor, marking the DVD as a rental release.

These descriptors can be placed on the front cover or on the back-cover or on the DVD itself. They can consist of a single word, a certain phrase or an addition to the copyright text (the fine print) on the back-cover.

In the case of absence of such descriptor, third party data is explicitly ALLOWED to confirm the rental status. Usually, the existence of two different UPC / EAN codes for the same DVD release with identical content is a strong indicator for the first release to be a rental version.

Preferably, the data of the rental status in absence of a descriptor on the cover or the DVD itself shall be confirmed through the distribution companies homepage, but can also come from other sources, such as invoices sent to rental stores by the distribution companies or their subsidiaries, third party databases etc.


2. How to add rental DVD to the online db

Once you have established a rental version - usually by seeing the DVD at your local video-rental store and checking for the above mentioned indicators - you may only add it to the online db if the DVD carries its own unique UPC or - if the UPC / EAN is identical to that of the retail version - has a different disc ID than the retail version. In the latter case, the DVD must be added by Disc ID only.

If both (rental and retail version) share the same UPC / EAN and disc ID, the rental version must not be added to the online db at all. The retail version supersedes the rental version in these cases. In these cases, ALL the information must be taken from the retail version, with the release date and SRP being the only exceptions to this rule: these are taken from the earliest release, which may - but does not have to - be the rental release.


3. How to indicate a rental DVD in the online db

Rental versions are indicated by an entry in the descriptor (Dist. Trait) field.

Rental versions shall be indicated by using a uniform descriptor. While distribution companies may use several different ways of describing the rental status, for the purpose of profiling these versions of DVDs only one description for rental versions for each locality shall be used.

This information shall be taken from the rental version's locality language, i. e. "rental version" for English speaking countries, "Verleihversion" for German speaking countries etc.

The actual wording for the descriptor shall be agreed upon by the user community of the respective locality, by way of majority decision in the known forums. The result of the voting process shall be submitted to IVS and be included in the rules. Once established, the description for rental versions shall not be changed again.

If a rental version is added to the db, all future updates and data added may only be taken from that version.

If the rental version also carries "regular" descriptors (for example "Widescreen", "Collector's Edition" etc.), and the descriptor to indicate the rental status does not fit in the field provided by the program, abbreviations of the rental descriptor may be used. The actual abbreviation shall be determined in the same way as the descriptor itself: my majority decision of the users of the affected locality.
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Hax
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #1 on Oct 23, 2006, 5:57pm »

additional word of warning - some rental chains will replace snappers with keep cases
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skipnet50
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #2 on Oct 24, 2006, 12:32am »

LOL, Hax, I always enjoyed that avatar. But your lower lip must really get sore.

I agree with you on the snapper issue i have at least one Previously Viewed DVD which was release as a snapper but....you know the rest.

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hydr0x
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #3 on Oct 26, 2006, 10:41am »


Quote:
In these cases, ALL the information must be taken from the retail version, with the release date and SRP being the only exceptions to this rule: these are taken from the earliest release, which may - but does not have to - be the rental release.


i strongly disagree with this. Why should we use the SRP of the rental version? that's not a consumer price and often not related at all to the actual prices consumers pay for the non-rental version.

And the release date? the dvd is released when it is available for purchase for a broader group of people and not for a restricted group of companies.


Quote:

This information shall be taken from the rental version's locality language, i. e. "rental version" for English speaking countries, "Verleihversion" for German speaking countries etc.


i also have to disagree with this. it's an international community and it's important that not only local members can understand the trait. the counter-argument would be "but local members might not understand the english trait". My answer to that: a single member only has to learn ONE english expression (rental version) to be able to recognize all rental version worldwide. on the opposite site if we'd go with local rental traits a user would have to learn X expressions for "rental version" where x is the number of supported localities
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Darxon
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #4 on Oct 26, 2006, 3:58pm »


Quote:


i strongly disagree with this. Why should we use the SRP of the rental version? that's not a consumer price and often not related at all to the actual prices consumers pay for the non-rental version.

And the release date? the dvd is released when it is available for purchase for a broader group of people and not for a restricted group of companies.


Because we always use the earliest release data. A change of that way of profiling would make it necessary for rental versions to completely steer away from this basic rule.

I'm all open for suggestions, but I'd say the addition of a descriptor (and that's basically what we're talking about here) does not warrant the restructuring of the rules' foundation and basic principles.

And the DVD is not only released when it is "available for a broader group of people", which it actually is, but only for rent, anyway.

How would you define "availability for a broader group of people"? Does that exclude Limited editions, only available to a very small percentage of the total number of eligible customers worldwide? How about editions small in number by small studio companies that go OOP within weeks after the release? Are those titles released once a bigger company picks the title up and re-releases it?

The purpose of taking this data from the rental release is to avoid ping-pong contributions, which will arise.

And btw, I have yet to see ONE title that combines a shared UPC / EAN for rental and retail release and different content. Those titles are the same, they are just released and priced differently.



Quote:
i also have to disagree with this. it's an international community and it's important that not only local members can understand the trait. the counter-argument would be "but local members might not understand the english trait". My answer to that: a single member only has to learn ONE english expression (rental version) to be able to recognize all rental version worldwide. on the opposite site if we'd go with local rental traits a user would have to learn X expressions for "rental version" where x is the number of supported localities


Since maintaining these profiles relies on people from the respective locality alone (it's highly unlikely for rental versions to achieve international distribution of some sort...), I think it's only fair to use an expression from the respective locality as well.

The ideal solution would be for IVS to add a new checkbox to the program. And that could then be easily included in the language packages the program is equipped with.

Agreed, it's an international community, but if I dive deep enough into a locality's specifics, to obtain rental versions of DVDs (i.e. actually own them) I am surely also able to make the connection in the locality's original language.

However, I do see your point, especially when it comes to internationally "lesser known" (no offense to anyone, please) languages.

So an uniform descriptor is fine with me (preferably English, however) but a later inclusion in the language packs of the program should be kept in mind.
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hydr0x
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #5 on Nov 1, 2006, 5:58am »


Quote:

Quote:


i strongly disagree with this. Why should we use the SRP of the rental version? that's not a consumer price and often not related at all to the actual prices consumers pay for the non-rental version.

And the release date? the dvd is released when it is available for purchase for a broader group of people and not for a restricted group of companies.


Because we always use the earliest release data. A change of that way of profiling would make it necessary for rental versions to completely steer away from this basic rule.

I'm all open for suggestions, but I'd say the addition of a descriptor (and that's basically what we're talking about here) does not warrant the restructuring of the rules' foundation and basic principles.

And the DVD is not only released when it is "available for a broader group of people", which it actually is, but only for rent, anyway.

How would you define "availability for a broader group of people"? Does that exclude Limited editions, only available to a very small percentage of the total number of eligible customers worldwide? How about editions small in number by small studio companies that go OOP within weeks after the release? Are those titles released once a bigger company picks the title up and re-releases it?

The purpose of taking this data from the rental release is to avoid ping-pong contributions, which will arise.

And btw, I have yet to see ONE title that combines a shared UPC / EAN for rental and retail release and different content. Those titles are the same, they are just released and priced differently.


it looks like you may have misunderstood me

i'm not talking about rental versions here. i was talking about the cases were rental and normal release share the upc. you stated that in those cases the retail version should have the retail info except srp and release date?? why these exceptions? either you profile the retail versions or you don't. you can't just chose some info from that and some other info from the other release, just makes no sense. Plus, as i said, the srp of a retail version has no connection at all to the srp of a rental version. thus any calculations (like, how many % of the srp did i pay on average in my collection) comes completely obsolete, because the srp is not of the release you actually bought.
similar with the release date, why should we enter a release date of another edition (rental) of this movie than the one that's profiled in this profile?? just makes no sense to me and i've yet to see a good reason for this as it's completely against the basic principles of the current rules
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Darxon
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #6 on Nov 1, 2006, 4:09pm »

You DID read what I wrote and you quoted, didn't you?

I didn't misunderstand you and pointed out the reason for those exceptions, and you even quoted them.

I see you have a different POV, but is there really a need to repeat my arguments after just two posts again?
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hydr0x
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #7 on Nov 7, 2006, 6:23am »

the one real reason for you pov you gave was "The purpose of taking this data from the rental release is to avoid ping-pong contributions, which will arise." which is of course valid but also true if you decide to take this data from the retail version. The only thing that matters to avoid ping-ponging is that there's a rule covering this.

the only other reason for your release date pov was "Because we always use the earliest release data." which is with all respect, bullnuts. We do not use the earliest release date (if we would every new edition of a movie would have the release date of the first ever released dvd with that movie, worldwide), what we do use is the earliest release date of the dvd covered in the profile. If the profile covers the retail version than the earliest release date of that dvd is when it was released and not when the rental version was released. as i said, you either take the data from the retail version or the rental version. mixing it up is the worst thing you could do cause it would 1) absolutely confuse users and 2) make the data pretty much useless

it's a shame noone else seems to be interested in any discussion on this, i'm pretty confident i'm not alone with my pov
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skipnet50
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #8 on Nov 7, 2006, 10:39am »

Hydrox you are not alone, but I am avoiding this since I lack knowledge in the area, From what I have figured out is that it would appear, I guess, that a rental version would carry a different EAN from the retail version which would validate your discussion. Two different versions, two unique profiles for each.

Are there instance where the rental version carries the same EAN as the retail version? This might be problematic. If so I would assume the distribution companies have some sort of deal that would forbid selling such a title prior to the release date of the retail version, in which case I believe the release date of the retail version would be the appropriate date to use.

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hydr0x
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #9 on Nov 7, 2006, 11:18am »


Quote:
Are there instance where the rental version carries the same EAN as the retail version?


yes, unfortunately


Quote:

This might be problematic. If so I would assume the distribution companies have some sort of deal that would forbid selling such a title prior to the release date of the retail version, in which case I believe the release date of the retail version would be the appropriate date to use.

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yeah, i think there's such a deal but Darxon will know better because he's in the business
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Darxon
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #10 on Nov 7, 2006, 3:15pm »

Hi hydr0x, long time no see... just kidding...

You might not believe it, but the reason for me posting this here is to actually get a rule set up covering this issue, to avoid confusion and ping-pong. We're on the same page, actually.

And please try to stay away from insulting comments, it's not that hard, I manage to do so as well... Calling my POV bullnuts is not in the least (at least in my eyes) made more docile by adding "with respect" up ahead. That's a lame attempt from your side to stay within the boundaries of the posting rules in this forum.

To your remarks:

Sure we do cover the DVD in the profile, and if the rental and retail version share the same EAN, are not discernible by content, even share the same discID (highly likely if the aforementioned is true), and the DVD in question has had a rental time window, then the earliest release date is that of the rental version. It's not really hard to understand that, since the same DVD gets distributed in two areas (rental and retail market), is available to the general public (for rent or to buy) and has one earliest release date.

And since we always take the first DVD release date for each DVD profiled, using the (sometimes) later retail street date creates an exception from the general rule, that I don't believe a rental trait warrants. I am trying to stay within the current rules already set up to include this kind of DVD, not create the whole book from scratch.

And those DVDs are sometimes even (re-)sold prior to the retail street dates, especially if the rental time window is several months (for example "Die Reise der Pinguine").

And don't tell me that what should not be can not be, something very similar started our last discussion (it's highly unlikely that Warner would spend the extra money needed for rental covers if their intent was to sell them at regular retail stores anyway...)
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hydr0x
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #11 on Nov 8, 2006, 5:57am »


Quote:
And please try to stay away from insulting comments, it's not that hard, I manage to do so as well... Calling my POV bullnuts is not in the least (at least in my eyes) made more docile by adding "with respect" up ahead. That's a lame attempt from your side to stay within the boundaries of the posting rules in this forum.


you might want to read my post again. i did not call your pov bullnuts - jesus christ, what a horrible typo mash-up of nuts and bullnuts - but the reason for your pov. i can't see how calling a reason like that is against the rules and i also can't see why you feel personally attacked by this - well, maybe because you really misunderstood the line


Quote:

Sure we do cover the DVD in the profile, and if the rental and retail version share the same EAN, are not discernible by content, even share the same discID (highly likely if the aforementioned is true), and the DVD in question has had a rental time window, then the earliest release date is that of the rental version. It's not really hard to understand that, since the same DVD gets distributed in two areas (rental and retail market), is available to the general public (for rent or to buy) and has one earliest release date.


nothing new here. i never even questioned that, of course the earliest release date of this ean is the one of the rental version. the question is though, does it make any sense to use it. after all we're setting up rules here, we're not bound to any existing misleading ones

the problem with your argumentation above is that you just assume the same ean also has the same disc-id. this is not a given fact and in reality there might be a different disc inside, even with slightly different features or attributes. which leads us back to the basic question: if there's a rental and retail with same ean and possibly different disc, which version do you want to profile. you have to decide here and can't just mix up the info. of course we could - after all we're setting the rules here - but it would cause a lot more problems and confusion than there are benefits to it. and that's exactly the problem. when you set up new rules you have to think of what's best for the user and the database. and i just can't see why your approach about srp and especially price would be best for db and users.


Quote:

And don't tell me that what should not be can not be


ehm, where did i

oh, sorry about the missing question marks and capitalization, stupid shift buttons broke or something, at least they're not working, gotta switch the pc here at uni...
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Darxon
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 Re: Rental version
« Reply #12 on Nov 8, 2006, 8:27am »

As included in my draft, if there's different Disc IDs, those shall be used.

If it's identical, I believe set up the proposal utilizing the existing standard rules, incl. the first release date.

If a change of that standard rule for these cases is what we shall go for, I don't mind. If it's in the rules, that's fine and recognizable.
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TitlesBoxset iconTV Series icon

Title

Use the title from the film's creditsDVD's front cover.

Description

The Description field is for distinguishing between DVDs, and for indicating special versions and collections (for example The Criterion Collection, Widescreen, Full-Screen Edition). It's usually safe to use one of the built-in selections if appropriate. If you are using a non-standard description, take it from the DVD box, and ensure it will help distinguish between different releases of the same title.Use the description exactly as listed on the cover. Descriptors usually come in 3 types: Aspect Ratio (Widescreen or Full Screen), Series (e.g. Platinum Edition, The Criterion Collection) and Edition (Two-Disc Special Edition, Collector's Edition). If multiple descriptors are present, enter them in the order listed on the box cover, separated by colons. Abbreviate as necessary (e.g. WS, FS, SE, CE).

Add HD DVD or Blu-ray as appropriate for such discs (HD or BR if there is insufficient field length)

Original Title

The Original Title field serves two general purposes, but in both cases allows for the tracking of the original feature title. In cases where the title is the original titleof the DVD matches the original title, leave the Original Title field blank.

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