I would propose to add an episode identifier to each role name in order to tag the credit to one or more specific episodes.
I'd rather see Episode dividers allowed in the cast list, than to add episodes to every role name.
IMO this is quite elegant. Whereas episode dividers create ugly entries in the actors data. And you can't list someone who appears in more than one episode twice.
Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 9 Location: Germany|12 Karma: 0
Re: Credits « Reply #21 on Aug 22, 2006, 11:24am »
Quote:
I would propose to add an episode identifier to each role name in order to tag the credit to one or more specific episodes.
This cannot work. The same goes for episode dividers. Firstly: The role field is too short even now. To try to get additional information in there is a bad idea IMO. Every actor can only be listed once. There goes the episode divider. Even with extended rolenames you cannot keep the correct order in which the actors are credited for each episode.
And also, it would be theoretically possible to enhance the batchappend tool in my Cast & Crew Editor, that it can generate either the cast list with extended role names or integrate role dividers in the list. Obviously only for the local database. If there is demand for this, I will integrate it.
I don't see that my project would become obsolete even if we would decide to change the rules in this regard.
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 227 Location: US|1 Karma: -11
Re: Credits « Reply #22 on Aug 22, 2006, 12:04pm »
I agree with, Tom. The interim solution provided by his project is outstanding and provides data that is boit useful and complete. Not to mention that once we get there IVS will have a massive update.<BEG>
Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 9 Location: Germany|12 Karma: 0
Re: Credits « Reply #23 on Aug 22, 2006, 12:08pm »
Quote:
And also, it would be theoretically possible to enhance the batchappend tool in my Cast & Crew Editor, that it can generate either the cast list with extended role names or integrate role dividers in the list. Obviously only for the local database. If there is demand for this, I will integrate it.
For the fun of it, I have made the generation of episode dividers possible. I haven't released it, yet. I would need volunteers to test it first. To keep this thread on-topic, please visit this thread if there is interest. Rho's way would need totally new implementation. I will only try to add that possibility if there is really interest for it.
Joined: Mar 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 381 Location: Mars, USA|1 Karma: 2
Re: Credits « Reply #24 on Aug 22, 2006, 12:58pm »
Quote:
I agree with, Tom. The interim solution provided by his project is outstanding and provides data that is boit useful and complete.
Again you guys are missing the point and focusing on the wrong thing. While Tom's project is good, it is not an 'Official IVS Tool' and not a solution at all.
Unless Tom has contacted every single user, only a small percentage know about it. If we are lucky, 10% of the user base visits the forum. What are the other 90% supposed to do? Live with empty profiles?
I am still waiting for someone to tell me what harm is caused by including the full cast list. And please don't tell me it is useless information. As has been expressed here, by several people, it is useful to them.
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 227 Location: US|1 Karma: -11
Re: Credits « Reply #25 on Aug 22, 2006, 1:19pm »
Try setting up an ENTIRE cast list, now go back and set it up per Episode and remove the data from the Master, measure that time and multiply it many times. You are talking about saving many hundreds of man hours of data entry to get to where we are going, as opposed to simply doing the process ONE time. This from one who knows, it take me typically 24 man hours to do a single complete season, why do that process more than once.
Joined: Mar 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 381 Location: Mars, USA|1 Karma: 2
Re: Credits « Reply #28 on Aug 22, 2006, 1:53pm »
Skip, your logic is flawed. I have explained it before but it seems I need to do so again.
If we ever get to the point where we profile each episode, those cast lists will have to be done from scratch. So that work will have to be done regardless of what we decide here.
Nobody has to enter a full cast list. Only those people that want to do it will do it. So, if those people choose to spend their 'man hours' doing it, what do we care? It is their time to spend as they see fit isn't it?
The only extra time that will be spent is in removing the cast list from existing profiles. I don't know about you, but I have done this and timed it. It takes less than a minute to remove an entire cast list. No real time lost here.
Remember, we are not talking about requiring this data. We are talking about allowing it. There is a huge difference. This means only the people who choose to enter it will. If you don't want to do the work, then you don't have to.
If we allow the cast list, and you don't want it, you will spend less than a minute to delete it. On the other hand, if we don't allow it and 10, 15, 20 people do want it, those 20 people will each have to enter it themselves. Talk about wasted man hours.
Again, I fail to see the harm in allowing the cast list here.
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 227 Location: US|1 Karma: -11
Re: Credits « Reply #29 on Aug 22, 2006, 2:07pm »
Unicus:
If you are going to use full cast lists for the Master where are you going to get the data from, each individual episode, and then repeat the process later? Not me...do it ONE time. No signiificant time lost, let's bereal conservative 1 minute times 5000 users=5000 man minutes=over 80 man hours that is insignificant?
The data is all but wothless in a massive cast list.
I can make the same argument to you. If you want the entire cast you can do it locally and be done with it and for those 10, 15, or 20 people that want it that way, why should theu im[ppse their time wasting procedure on everyone else. Those 10, 15, 0r 20 can exchange data files if they wish so that only one of them has to do it.
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 227 Location: US|1 Karma: -11
Re: Credits « Reply #30 on Aug 22, 2006, 2:28pm »
Quote:
Quote:
I agree with, Tom. The interim solution provided by his project is outstanding and provides data that is boit useful and complete.
Again you guys are missing the point and focusing on the wrong thing. While Tom's project is good, it is not an 'Official IVS Tool' and not a solution at all.
Unless Tom has contacted every single user, only a small percentage know about it. If we are lucky, 10% of the user base visits the forum. What are the other 90% supposed to do? Live with empty profiles?
I am still waiting for someone to tell me what harm is caused by including the full cast list. And please don't tell me it is useless information. As has been expressed here, by several people, it is useful to them.
While I can agree with your numbers, though they are probably fairly liberal. If that argument were true, then we shouldn't have Contribution Rules at all, after all very few people are going to make themselves aware of them.
Joined: Mar 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 570 Location: Portland, OR USA|1 Karma: 3
Re: Credits « Reply #31 on Aug 22, 2006, 5:06pm »
Quote:
No signiificant time lost, let's bereal conservative 1 minute times 5000 users=5000 man minutes=over 80 man hours that is insignificant?
Skip, I'm just 1 person. The math should be:
1 minute times 1 user = 1 man minute = exactly 1/60 man hour.
That doesn't change if there are 4,999 other users doing the same thing or 4,999,999. I don't count time others waste as lost time in my own personal life.
Joined: Mar 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 381 Location: Mars, USA|1 Karma: 2
Re: Credits « Reply #32 on Aug 22, 2006, 5:49pm »
Quote:
Unicus:
If you are going to use full cast lists for the Master where are you going to get the data from, each individual episode, and then repeat the process later? Not me...do it ONE time.
Again you are missing the point. If YOU don't want to do it, then don't do it. But if I choose to do it, what does it matter to you? What have you lost?
Quote:
No signiificant time lost, let's bereal conservative 1 minute times 5000 users=5000 man minutes=over 80 man hours that is insignificant?
Where are you coming up with 5000? But fine, we will use your numbers. If this data has to be kept local and it take 24 hours to audit a TV Series set we have 24 hours times 5000 users = 120,000 man hours spent entering the same exact data. Compared to that, 80 man hours is insignificant.
Quote:
The data is all but wothless in a massive cast list.
To you maybe, but not to everyone.
Quote:
I can make the same argument to you. If you want the entire cast you can do it locally and be done with it and for those 10, 15, or 20 people that want it that way, why should theu im[ppse their time wasting procedure on everyone else. Those 10, 15, 0r 20 can exchange data files if they wish so that only one of them has to do it.
Nobody is imposing anything on anybody. If you don't want to enter the cast list you don't have to. There is no requirement to do so. Besides that, the Main db is supposed to be a starting point. From that point you can customize your local to reflect how you want it to look.
Having the data available to everyone makes a lot more sense than making people enter it all themselves. Again, to use your numbers, each person who wants it will have to spend 24 man hours entering it. Those that don't will have to spend less than a minute...I actually did it in less than 15 seconds for the longest cast list in my collection...to remove it. In my book, it is pretty obvious which ones we should make life easier for.
Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 162 Location: Atlanta, GA USA|1 Karma: 3
Re: Credits « Reply #33 on Aug 22, 2006, 6:31pm »
1. Deleting the entire cast when we get to epsiode profiling should take about 2 seconds if you simply copy an empty cast list from say a boxset with no cast listed and paste it into the TV Set cast list!
2. Since you are collecting all of this cast data for TomGaines program, surely there is a way to copy and paste the cast data from there into the episode profiles (when we get there). So you wouldn't be duplicating that effort if you have access to Tom's program.
I agree with Unicus. If someone wants to go to the trouble of entering the cast for all episodes, it should be permitted.
Joined: Mar 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 381 Location: Mars, USA|1 Karma: 2
Re: Credits « Reply #34 on Aug 22, 2006, 6:55pm »
Quote:
While I can agree with your numbers, though they are probably fairly liberal.
I was being a little generous. When I worked for Maxis, the actual number was less than 5%.
Quote:
If that argument were true, then we shouldn't have Contribution Rules at all, after all very few people are going to make themselves aware of them.
Ah but there is the rub. If people want to contribute, they must follow the Contribution Rules. It is a requirement. They have no choice.
The forums, however, are optional. You can contribute until the cows come home and never once visit the forums.
So, the point I was trying to make was, only the very small percentage of users that actually choose to visit the forums will know about Tom's project. While it is a good project, it is not a viable option for the vast majority of users.
This cannot work. [...] Firstly: The role field is too short even now. To try to get additional information in there is a bad idea IMO.
I agree, field length can be a problem. But then the simple episode numbers are not that long.
Quote:
Every actor can only be listed once. [...] Even with extended rolenames you cannot keep the correct order in which the actors are credited for each episode.
Of course only the first appearance of the actor would be listed. This is a limitation which I think is bearable.
Quote:
And also, it would be theoretically possible to enhance the batchappend tool in my Cast & Crew Editor, that it can generate either the cast list with extended role names or integrate role dividers in the list. Obviously only for the local database. If there is demand for this, I will integrate it.
I'd like to see the extended role names version. But then I'm not that much into TV shows and I have already entered (copied from your project) the cast list of "friends".
Quote:
I don't see that my project would become obsolete even if we would decide to change the rules in this regard.
Except for the correct order everything would be stored in the profiler database and could be used for a future episode handling system. IVS could even make an automatic conversion in the online database.
BTW your project is great and I don't want to miss it.
Notice: This section is under construction due to the major program update that is coming soon. Be prepared for this section to change drastically when the program update is released. With thisthe aforementioned change in mind TV Series shouldSets are to be handled asusing Box Sets when possible rules to facilitate future Eepisode data handling.
Reminder: Standard rules still apply.
TV Series on DVD come in 2 separate types:
Complete Series/Season sets
Anthologies of Episodes that do not form a complete series or season.
The following are Cclarifications to the standard rules for parent profiles of TV Series on DVD:
Section
Clarification / Adjustment to Rules
Title
The title fFor a Box Set should beenter the title listed on the Front Cover; for example The Andy Griffith Show. Enter sSeason indicators, if listed on the cover, should be entered as part of the title, not the description. Season indicators are to be used exactly as they are on the front cover as long as it fits in the space provided. Angel: The Complete First Season.
Overview
Complete Series & Anthologies of Episodes - A simple list of Episodes may be added to the standard overview. A simple Episode list would contain a numbered list of the titles of the episodes only. (Format: 1. Episode name) Production and Aired order is not to be used here. Do not add episode synopses to the overview field, these can be added to the local non-contributed Notes field.
Use the following rules for disc level profiles:
Section
Clarification / Adjustment to Rules
Overview
List the episodes included on the disc, add corresponding episode synopses when supplied with the disc (e.g. on the cover, on an insert or in a booklet).
Production Year
Complete Series - Use the year that the Series was produced and first aired in its country of origin. TV series are typically spread over a date range for a season, for example 2002-2003, for DVD Profiler purposes this will be entered as the beginning of the season from the example the entry would be 2002.
Anthologies of Episodes – The Production Year will be the date of the Earliest Episode
Use the production year of the Earliest Aired Episode on the disc
Disc IDs
Label each of the discs containing episodes of the series.Replace the default disc description with episode numbers. (i.e. Episodes 1-4) counting the episodes in each set. Production and Aired order is not to be used here. If there is a separate disc of extras with no episodes, use the standard Bonus Materials description.
Overviews
Complete Series & Anthologies of Episodes - A simple list of Episodes may also be added to the standard overview. Simple Episode list would contain a numbered list of the titles of the episodes only. (Format: 1. Episode name) Production and Aired order is not to be used here. Do not add episode synopses to the overview field, but these can be added to the local non-contributed Notes field.
Credits
Complete Series & Anthologies of Episodes – List only The Main Cast Members From the opening or closing credits for a TV Series appropriately, Do NOT include ANY crew members in the Profile. Existing crew members should not be deleted but no new should be added.
Menu option allowing access to individual chapters or scenes. Scene Selection should not be checked in TV Series unless a Scene Selection Menu is available per episode.
Cast
List only the Main Cast Members from the opening or closing credits appropriately.
Crew
Do not include any crew members in the profile. Existing crew members are not to be deleted; however no new ones are to be added.
Scene Selection
Menu option that allows access to individual chapters or scenes. This is not to be checked unless Scene Selection Menus are available per episode.
Note: In rare cases where multiple Complete TV Series are packaged together, the Box-set rules can be applied, treating each series like a single film - applying the above rules for it's individual profile.
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If that argument were true, then we shouldn't have Contribution Rules at all, after all very few people are going to make themselves aware of them.
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